BOB PICKLE!!!!!!!!!!

[steffan]

I agree that just picking up dirt and slinging it is not right. On the other hand, I wish to point out something that I said a long time ago...

If the people accusing 3ABN were people of integrity then I would take their "allegations" seriously. However, all I find are people who seem to be very unethical while at the same time demanding 3ABN live up to their "standard" of Christianity.

With that said, let me list the "ethical" 3ABN accusers : drug dealer, stalker, embezzler,liar - all documented - if their characters are forgotten, then readers tend to forget the accuser and focus only on the accusations. Something like the devil does.

I don't believe that Penny is being critical of me. At least I don't take it as personal. The raised point was valid and needs a valid answer, at least as to my own opinion. This entire saga has been one of publicity and the publication of the accusers' character should help readers decide as to the validity of their allegations, along with the documentation that has been provided.

[Penny]

Steffan - thanks for your message below. I was not being critical of your post (and I am glad that you did not take it to be so). I appreciate that you document your statements with evidence, and hopefully that helps some people who are on the fence about the accusations being made over at the other site.

I agree that just picking up dirt and slinging it is not right. On the other hand, I wish to point out something that I said a long time ago...

If the people accusing 3ABN were people of integrity then I would take their "allegations" seriously. However, all I find are people who seem to be very unethical while at the same time demanding 3ABN live up to their "standard" of Christianity.

With that said, let me list the "ethical" 3ABN accusers : drug dealer, stalker, embezzler,liar - all documented - if their characters are forgotten, then readers tend to forget the accuser and focus only on the accusations. Something like the devil does.

I don't believe that Penny is being critical of me. At least I don't take it as personal. The raised point was valid and needs a valid answer, at least as to my own opinion. This entire saga has been one of publicity and the publication of the accusers' character should help readers decide as to the validity of their allegations, along with the documentation that has been provided.

[Cynthia]

While I do think it is important to consider how things are said and in what spirit, I am of the opinion that when someone sets themselves up as a prosecutor, judge and jury, as Gailon Joy has done when it comes to 3abn finances and operations, policies and individuals employed by or serving on 3abns board. Then one must examine that witness and reporter, especially when he keeps claiming he has sources and proof but NEVER reveals either, and only has half the story, which is either heresay, or taken or twisted out of context..

The bible claims 2 or 3 witnesses are needed, and the 3abn accusers keep claiming they have 2 and 3, and even a multitude of witnesses, BUT they leave out the part where they need to be credible and righteous and IDENTIFIED witnesses and should be examined carefully. Three bold faced liars, or three individuals who have been deceived or confused, or 3 gossips repeating heresay can jump up and all tell the same story. BUT that does not establish their story/accusation as factual or true. And in fact, the bible reveals something about those 2 to 3 witnesses and a false witnesses doesn't count as one of them. Each needs to be examined diligently before condemning or judging another according to their testimony.

Deu 19:15 -20
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

When someone, like GAJ, is always trumpeting/reporting financial improprieties and unethical and immoral (and unproven) acts on 3abns and DS's part, while claiming he is concerned about the donors to 3abn, and where and how the donor money is spent and used?

Well then I think it becomes very relevant that he and Pickle have taken donor's money for their so called "defense fund" and have yet to open their books up and be accountable as to what they received or where they spent it. When they are asking for reimbursement from 3abn? Well then I think that raises the question of whether they will be reimbursing their own donors if they get any money from 3abn.After all it is their donor's money and not their own money which they claim they are owed and should be payed, right?

When someone like Gailon Joy, a virtual nobody when it comes to 3abn, never having been there, not knowing any of the people he is condemning represents himself as doing the Lord's work in demanding that a private, independent ministry, such as 3abn is, open their books to him and his posse and allow them to examine, judge and decide what is going on and determine how things should be done in the future and what should be changed and even who should be on the board and allowed to work or volunteer there???

Well then I think it becomes very relevant that the man in question doesn't have such a wonderful record in running his own businesses, and has twice filed bankruptcy and he and his unidentified panel of Judges aren't experts, don't have the access to what they claim to know and so aren't even qualified to judge.

When he accuses 3abn of not providing necessary info, it becomes relevant that he is the only one here who has been found in contempt of court and had sanctions issued against him, disobeying a direct order of the court while refusing to provide necessary info: http://www.3atalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=167



When Joy accuses DS of being a thief? And keeps demanding repentance, and trying to force that? Well then it becomes very relevant that Joy himself is a convicted Embezzler. When Pickle demands repentance and change from 3abn while justifying and trying to make excuses for his partner who was actually charged and convicted of the very things he is accusing others of without proof? well I think that is relevant, and shows a lack of good judgment.

Had Joy ever repented or been accountable, then his embezzlement shouldn't be brought up imo, but he quite obviously has not repented. Joy continues to this day to offer excuses and justifications and rationalizations about his funneling client funds from their account into his own business account, and claims he was just convicted on a technicality.

Of course his stories do not match the court records, For example, Joy claims (and Pickle has claimed for him) that he only took money which was really owed him and technically his. Problem is, his own appeal of his conviction (which he lost) proves that a lie as his main argument was that "he intended to pay the money back"...

As Steffan posted earlier, we think things claimed should be supported or proven.

So here you go:

Law For Business
By [U.S. Attorney General]John D. Ashcroft
Published 2001
Thomson Learning
Business / Economics/ Finance
ISBN 032406053X

Law for Business P. 29
"Embezzlement
Fraudulent conversion of property lawfully possessed


Embezzlement: Fraudulent conversion of another's property by someone in lawful possession of the property. Embezzlement requires the intent to defraud the owner of the property. Conversion here means that the defendant handles the property inconsistathntly with the arrangement by which he or she has possession of it. Since many businesses rely on employees to receive payments and make disbursements, embezzlement is often a crime against a business..

FACTS:
Gailon A. Joy owned Credit management Services Corp., (CMS), a debt collection agency. When CMS made a collection, it would deposit the money in Barre, Vermont. CMS also had it's own separate account. However, CMS began transferring fund from the Barre account to it's own account to cover it's expenses. CMS received a collection for Stacey Fuel and Lumber Co., but never even told Stacey the money had been collected. A year later CMS filed for Bankruptcy. The State charged Joy with the crime of embezzling the collection made for Stacey. Joy claimed he intended to repay the money.

Outcome:
The Court upheld Joy's conviction, saying an intent to repay was irrelevant.
--State v. Joy, 549A.2d 1033 (VT)

Fastcase State vs Joy.pdf

Entire fastcase file on Joy's embezzlement appeal and the affirmed conviction

(112.19 KiB) Downloaded 2008 times

I don't trust unrepentant liars and thieves, nor do I think God can use them in that state to try and expose unrepentant liars and thieves. So when I see them accusing others of their own sins without proof? Well sorry, that doesn't work for me, they have zero credibility.

When I see the Joy/Pickle followers and supporters claiming they are servants of God in their work of accusing the brethren? When I see them justifying the methods and tactics they employ, and claiming that they are being persecuted for exposing sin in the camp because God's servants are always persecuted? When I further see them acting like this is the end time test and all must line up with them and against 3abn, and follow Pickle and Joy in their "mission from God" or are lost and are worshipping DS and being controlled by him etc. I just shake my head.

PLEASE DO NOT DRINK THAT KOOLAID.

Ask questions, examine all, and prove things before taking a side or forming an opinion or judgment.

my 2 cents..

[Echo]

Synthian, I have often been concerned that the "witnesses" of Mr. Joy and Mr. Pickle do not rise to the Biblical standard you have quoted. In their haste to build a case, they have been far too willing to use allegations from those who have obvious agendas. The second part of that verse from Deut. has some pretty stiff penalties for those bogus witnesses.

Again this morning I am aghast at the posting done by Mr. Pickle on Adventtalk. Not only did he make immature gratuitous jabs of an unChristianlike nature at Tommy Shelton that are based on rumors of the man's sexual preference, but he made the following rebuttal to member Wendall's well-presented call for common sense when using unproven allegations against others:

Wendall,

Here are some facts. On 9/12/05, Linda wrote Danny:


Quote
It's a dreadful shame that you have sold out God's worldwide
network for sex. God sees and God knows. Cry out to Him and
repent, change your ways...for your own sake and for the sake of
the lost who need to hear.

Danny replied:


Quote
The Bible says "Judge not that ye be not judged". I lived with you when you and the
Dr. were having an affair. I saw and HEARD your fruits on tape and on video as well
as dealt with you everyday.
You know nothing about me and what I am doing for the past nearly year and a half.
Why are you so concerned NOW as to what I may or may not be doing?
If you truly cared about God's world wide network, you would not have sold it out for
the affections of another man!
You got what you wanted. Everyone told you this man would cost you your ministry
and marriage if you didn't drop him. You should be happy because as you said
when I handed you our divorce papers, "Oh good! The Dr. is coming to Springfield
this Thursday and now if we want to hold hands or kiss or whatever, we don't have to
hide it anymore". Barb Kerr will confirm this as she has already told several people
that, that's the reason she quit supporting you was because you told her the same
thing!
You and he have made numerous trips across the ocean to be with each other and
stay in each others homes and travel together. You have your freedom. You should
be enjoying it. I don't have anyone following you. You are free to do what you
please.

Your desire for attention became stronger than your desire to win the world! Please
read the statement that you sent to me only this time put your name in front of it. I
believe you should take your own counsel.

Linda replied:


Quote
I do not write you to judge you. The Bible says that those who have been
given much are accountable for much. You have been given more than
any other SDA Christian. Just food for thought.
I continue to deny your accusations. I loved you, my ministry and my
life. Period.

Danny replied:


Quote
I realize I am accountable to God. I ask Him to direct me everyday. Why couldn't you have
been accountable to me as your husband, the Head of the house, and accountable to God.
You would have stopped your relationship with this man and your ministry would have
continued. I pray for you daily.
I realize the great responsibility God has given me and am trying to learn from your mistakes as
well as my own.
No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. It's just shame you couldn't have admitted yours
and gone on even stronger for the Lord.

Linda replied:


Quote
OS, etc. is not being directed by God.

Danny replied:


Quote
I agree! Neither is leaving your husband for another man.

I think it would have been much better if Danny is simply denied the allegation. But from what I can tell, he never denied this horrid allegation. He simply tried to sling back all the old, unsubstantiated mud he'd already been throwing.


Quote from: Wendall on Yesterday at 08:49:41 PM
It is also interesting to note that Linda was not the source regarding many of the issues in the marriage or the number of inappropriate relationships between Danny and other members of the opposite gender.

I am concerned about the continual reference to DS's inappropriate relationships. I have read certain posts time after time but I have NEVER seen any facts. I have read only what appears to be rumours. If he was in those type of relationships (plural) then someone should march over to 3abn with all the evidence and present it and put an end to much of this confusion. I have to believe because it has never been revealed most of the accusations must be false. I am excluding Brandy from this discussion because to make that an inappropriate relationship assumes that the divorce was not Bible based which is most likely true, but has not been proven because of the reluctance of 3abn to produce requested facts.

What is inappropriate to one might not be inappropriate to another. How far can a married spouse go in a relationship for it to be inappropriate. It appears some might think talking on the phone to another, others might think going into the apartment of another, others might think neither because of learning of the facts of each circumstance.

Maybe if one can not support their accusations with facts about inappropriate relationships then it might be declared a RUMOUR and not be allowed on the forum. Am I thinking logically or Christike or?

Has Mr. Pickle proven anything here? Do we have any documentation to establish Linda Shelton's allegations of "OS" against her ex-husband? Does she have pictures or a written confession from her ex or his supposed partner in this alleged sexual act? Do her "she said" remarks any hold any greater weight than Danny Shelton's "he said" allegations against her in this email dialogue? Neither is backed up with proof and, IMO, neither should be used by third parties as such.

Mr. Pickle is merely using the unsubstantiated allegations to whip up Pharisaichal moral outrage in the all too willing, agenda-driven followers surrounding both him and Mr. Joy.

Wendall wisely suggested: "Maybe if one can not support their accusations with facts about inappropriate relationships then it might be declared a RUMOUR and not be allowed on the forum. Am I thinking logically or Christike or?

Yes, Wendall is thinking both logically and Christlike. What Wendall fails to recognize is that rumor is the very force that drives Adventtalk. Without rumor and rank speculation and surmizing, the forum would be nearly empty of any content.

Mr. Pickle opens his post with "Here are some facts. On 9/12/05, Linda wrote Danny:" Yes, it is apparently a fact that on 9/12/05 Linda and Danny exchanged emails. That is the only "fact" he has proven.


In his lame attempt to prove the validity of the allegations of inappropriate relationships against Danny Shelton, Mr. Pickle said: "But from what I can tell, he never denied this horrid allegation." And that establishes it as fact? Oh puleeze...

[proffaberf451]

When Joy accuses DS of being a thief? And keeps demanding repentance, and trying to force that? Well then it becomes very relevant that Joy himself is a convicted Embezzler. When Pickle demands repentance and change from 3abn while justifying and trying to make excuses for his partner who was actually charged and convicted of the very things he is accusing others of without proof? well I think that is relevant, and shows a lack of good judgment.

Had Joy ever repented or been accountable, then his embezzlement shouldn't be brought up imo, but he quite obviously has not repented. Joy continues to this day to offer excuses and justifications and rationalizations about his funneling client funds from their account into his own business account, and claims he was just convicted on a technicality.

Of course his stories do not match the court records, For example, Joy claims (and Pickle has claimed for him) that he only took money which was really owed him and technically his. Problem is, his own appeal of his conviction (which he lost) proves that a lie as his main argument was that "he intended to pay the money back"...

[Echo]

Now member Sister has joined the on the growing rebuttal to Wendall's call to prove allegations rather than print those things that are unproven rumor.

Sister posted:

Wendall, have you forgotten the letter Linda's daughter wrote concerning the inappropriate sexual behavior Danny exhibited with her? Danny raised her as his daughter since she was a small child. If he had no problem crossing sexual boundaries with someone he raised as if she were his own child, do you really think the bonds of matrimony held any constraint for him?

So now we have four member disagreeing with Wendall:

1. Fran telling Wendall that if the forum followed his advice it would make God cry.

2. Johann seemingly supporting the actions of a church board of directors in destroying the career of a Lutheran Pastor because half of the church wouldn't accept a judge's ruling of Not Guilty to the charges brought by two girls.

3. Mr. Pickle reminding Wendall that Linda Shelton and her ex-husband threw mud at each other in an email dialogue on September 12, 2005.

4. Sister attempting to make a case against Wendall's call to use documented facts instead of rumors by throwing into play another unproven statement as though since Linda's daughter said it it must be true. It's still only a "she said" as yet unproven allegation.

Who will be the next Adventtalk member to weigh in against Wendall's apt idea?

[Hyacinth Andrews]

I hope that this site doesn't become a place to post the dirt from people's closets - despite the documentation. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Those of us who do not agree with what is being written/alleged and the like over at Atalk will do so regardless of what is posted about the personal lives of the posters over there.

Those who are supporters of Atalk and agreeable to slinging mud of every sort everywhere and hoping that if you sling long enough something will stick...as in by repeating allegations perhaps they can make them become true...for that group what ever may be said about any of them (stalker, marijuana peddler and the like) isn't going to make any difference to them either.

Also, for them to throw out an allegation and then say "prove it is not true" ... these are the types to ignore.

This is my 2 cents worth. The 3ABN administration and staff are busy spreading the good news ... Atalk is busy spreading gossip. These are not similar activities.

Penny I am glad you brought that up as I was starting to be uncomfortable with the direction this discussion seems to be going.

[Cynthia]

Good Morning Echo,

From the very beginning when the personal letters between Danny and Linda were published I have thought it wrong, unethical, and an invasion of privacy. I was actually embarrassed for them. I would hate to see my private mail, or out of context quotes from it, published to the world.

They were private conversations and prove nothing except maybe, somewhat ironically, the exact opposite of what those publishing them have been trying to claim.

1. DS in the many private conversations with LS that they have published maintains and does believe she was unfaithful to him. Of course this doesn't prove she was, but it does seem to discount the Pickle/Joy/Johann etc.. version that he made it all up because he orchestrated a plan along with Brenda Walsh (with the collusion, and condoning of the 3abn board and the local church) to get rid of her. and that brings us to point two...

2. The exchanges were confidential and private, not meant for the eyes of others or to be passed around and discussed and chewed over. DS gave them to none of the so call "defenders" We have published none. Only the Pickle/Joy team has done so, and contrary to their claims about Linda being quiet and saying nothing about DS or 3abn, because of a "gag order", it becomes obvious (to me anyway) that she was the one who betrayed the confidentiality and privacy and gave them to others and has indeed been speaking and talking to, and giving things behind the scenes to those who speak and post publicly against DS and 3abn.

As far as Wendall and his appeal to reason goes? I can agree to a certain extent, but I am sorry, I think it a waste of time, and a futile attempt.

He is at the tail end of a long list of those who have asked and said the same things to no avail. 2 years ago, I had the same questions and points and was immediately branded a "Dannyclone" a "Danny finger" etc. Most of those called 'the defenders" today started the same way, and it was the lack of proof and evidence, or even straight answers, and the attacks and false accusations that our questions and appeals to reason engendered that led us to find things and prove them for ourselves and actually become defenders.

I am not saying this to convince anyone to start defending DS or 3abn, I am just explaining this to say that in every instance I have seen in these forum discussions during the past couple of years where a poster starts asking valid questions, or is concerned with the lack of evidence accompanying the surmising or insinuations etc, or appeals to all to use Christian methods, principles and words etc.? It only causes two things...

1. For the Pickle/Joy group to just do more of the very thing the poster is trying to reason with them about-- as in your example, wendal is concerned that these things are being said without evidence to support them, and so the Pickle/Joy team in response just post more accusations without valid evidence or support or proof.

and/ or 2. The Poster becomes a punching bag or focus of attack for that crowd.

Sorry, that's the way I see it based on what I have both experienced for myself or viewed where others were concerned.

Attempts to reason with or appeal to the core group on Advent Talk, is just fuel for the fire, and allows them to continue with their discussions instead of running out of gas and having nothing to talk about as they do when left alone.
I think they love the "wendalls" etc, as it gives them a chance to keep repeating and doing the same exact things without employing one of their own as a shill to keep the discussions, accusations, attacks and arguements there going.



My opinion. smile

..ian

(edited to add, just read the latest, and wendall's continuing questions allowed Bob to expound on all, and post more. Wendall is now complimenting and accepts all as evidence and proof of guilt that you just pointed out wasn't proof of anything but he said she said... things that make you go hmmm.. Again imho It's all just so shilly )

[Breezy]

Cindy, I agree with your post.

The latest posts over on AT show they have gone to a new low. Pickle has become "dirty-minded" for bringing out accusations-- ANY accusations, against DS. I will say right here they are FALSE ACCUSATIONS. Did you hear that Pickle? You have a disgusting EVIL mind to even THINK of these kinds of accusations. Your mind dwells on the low disgusting putrid garbage of this world for you to even THINK of this kind of evil. And your evil friends too.

The fact that Pickle has posted private letters SHOWS Linda Shelton's REAL desires to try to pin anything she can on Danny. She is involved behind the scenes as big as ever. She will make up ANY accusation to try to ruin DS and 3abn. Does this show a LOVE for souls? Does this show she desires for souls to be saved by the truth? Instead this shows her REAL thoughts--ANYTHING to ruin DS even if it is UNTRUE. Because it IS UNTRUE.

And Daryl Fawcett, has it ever occured to you that DS is innocent of these charges? You say because DS hasn't APOLOGIZED like King David that these things should be made public. Well, I have some news for you--THERE IS NOTHING to apologize for. NOTHING. Do you get this piece of information? Has it penetrated through? When will you get it? We have repeated this dozens of times and yet you and your "friends" continue to ignore it.

Let me REPEAT myself: Danny has not engaged in the vile accusations Pickle has put over on AT.

[Breezy]

I believe folks that I'm about done reading over on AT. They have reached such a low seamy (vile degraded) side of which I am not interested in reading. No use getting dirty with those who wallow in it.

It is ENOUGH!!