Tommy Shelton

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Cynthia
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:00 am America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by Cynthia »

Welcome Mrst53. :) Is that how you wish to be addressed here?

Before trying to address your question, and I beg for your patience, because I would like to express three things here. First and foremost I am so very sorry you had to go through all that. That was so very wrong. I myself know and understand how abuse can make one feel embarrassed and ashamed although we ourselves did nothing wrong to cause that shame and embarrassment. I understand the outrage, and the anger it causes and how that can be misdirected at ourselves causing depression. I understand the nightmares it can cause and the loss of self esteem and the walls caused by fear and a lack of trust which it can put between us and others and how hard it can be to surmount them and break them down. I also understand how God can heal us and help us overcome all that and become stronger because of it and enable us to help others do the same. God is so very good, and He has been so very good to me. I was not a victim of child abuse, mine came much later, but others here were, and some have similar or worse in their past than myself (their stories are not mine to tell...) My point being we are not without sympathy or empathy here, and not a one that I know of would defend sexual abuse of a child or abuse of any kind, although yes as a group, we are constantly accused of that by those on the other forum. Many of us years ago gave up trying to protest or explain that we hate those crimes and the injustice as much as they do, and are sickened by it. It did no good, and they talked right over us as if we had said nothing. but here how we feel and what we may believe needs to be respected, even if another poster/member strongly disagrees with our views or beliefs about the accusations against Tommy, or about just the current and only case against him. That we can discuss. That is my personal view. Moving on...

Secondarily I, as one of the administrators here will allow opinions to be attacked and criticized, on any topic. I will allow arguments and disagreements with views and beliefs to be made by both sides as long as done fairly and respectfully, meaning people need to clarify the difference between their opinion and what they believe to be a fact and support anything they are claiming to be a fact with evidence, and address and reply to that from an opposing viewpoint also because otherwise members here can't bring it up again. BUT what I will not allow here is a member here to be personally attacked or criticized just because another disagrees with them, and that protection of our forum members includes you because honest discussion and understanding and resolution of disagreements requires mutual respect, and it requires that we all treat one another as we would be treated, and more importantly love others as Jesus loved us.( I, am just one member of the administrative team though and so obviously not the only one allowed to speak, rule and decide, as we all need a check and balance system to keep on the right path. ;) )



The only other thing I wish to say here and again this is from me as a member, and again is my personal view and not being said here as an Admin. It concerns others here and not just myself, and that is that there are many members here, and we each have our own view and perspective, and so imho it is not really fair to say that "most of you (if not all) believe that Tommy is innocent." The thing is, a few here who are more involved and have more of the evidence and facts in the cases do believe him innocent, and a few here don't, but the majority here imho have taken a wait and see approach and believe that any one accused, (Not just Tommy, but including him) are innocent till proven guilty and that all evidence and all on both sides needs to be known and weighed before the truth can be determined. Further it is my opinion, although I really can't speak for all, that if Tommy in accordance with a plea bargain, pleads guilty in the current case than by law he will be found guilty and that even those who believe him innocent believe and know and accept that they can no longer claim that he is innocent, as whether he is or not, his plea makes him so in the eyes of the law.. It is also fair I believe to say based on private conversations that many here believe the plea bargain is not the right choice, even though most of those same people understand that there are extenuating circumstances and reasons for Tommy deciding to accept it. (again not all) There is one I know of who will claim 100% it is the only right choice.

The bottom line here is please treat members here as individuals and please understand that although most of us are here to defend 3ABN, and this forum was founded with that purpose, not all are here to do so, and even among those of us who are here to defend 3ABN, many believe the only reason Tommy and his case has been brought up is to accuse 3ABN, and that whether he is guilty or innocent, has nothing to do with 3ABN, except that those accusing 3ABN, have made it that. Because of that we had some differences about whether we should even allow discussion of the allegations against Tommy here... What I am saying is please address each member as an individual and don't put us all in the same box and assume that one speaks for all. I, myself may have overstepped my bounds and erred in the things I have said here about others for of course they are my opinion as they are according to my own bias and beliefs and views, so someone else here may speak up and say they disagree with me, as may you. :) and that's, ok...


I know this is rather long winded. I apologize for that, but there is a clear distinction between how adventtalk operates and how this forum does -- and that needs to be understood as you are coming from there. I think it is needful to understand that before the very volatile issue of child molestation and specifically allegations against Tommy are discussed here, otherwise nothing gets accomplished imo. From your posts elsewhere I think you can understand this. I hope so... :)

Blessings,

Cindy
~ Cindy
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Cynthia
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Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:00 am America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by Cynthia »

Asked:
I have one question for you. Why in God's Name would someone come forward after all this time and suffer the shame, humiliation and attacks by claiming they were molested by a Preacher when they were young?
In my opinion this question is based on the assumption that the allegations are true, and yes, it is fair to say that if they are, there are many understandable reasons why victim would not report a crime or not do so till much later, but I think it is fair to say you don't know whether the allegations are true or not, so Imho, an equally fair question here would be "Why in the world would someone come forward and make a false accusation against another and make themselves out to be a victim or in need of sympathy?"

That does happen, and I think that needs to be at least considered here, and given equal consideration and weighed along with your own question. Do you agree?

Let me be clear. I am not speaking here of all of the allegations against Tommy Shelton, for some I know nothing of other than what Robert Pickle claims and I have ample evidence that he is deceptive and repeats rumors and vile gossip without grounds, and makes allegations against others which he has no proof of, but claims he does. The problem is he has made many accusations and allegations against Danny Shelton and 3ABN all along, but everytime myself and others investigate? We find that they have no merit, and he came to that conclusion and judgment merely by belieing evil of another and only seeking to find evidence to support that. IOW: he twists and distorts what's said to him and repeats it to suit his own thinking and promote his point of view and agenda, putting his thoughts and opinions and judgments into other's mouths, or he has a piece of evidence but misuses or misinterprets it and uses faulty logic and false assumptions to jump from A to Z without anything to tie those two things together. {I am saying this merely to explain my pov, if you need evidence or want that, I am sure that others as well as myself can give you a list a mile or so long as examples- Just asks) so I personally don't trust him and believe nothing he claims or says. I know from trying to hunt down and verify statements he claims he is witness to or reporting about in regard to the allegations against TS, that some of the parties are dead. For example: One victim's mother allegedly gave him info, and he counts the child as a victim, however the living son makes no such claims and has never reported or filed anything, and she can't verify what Pickle says as she is dead. He claims a conference official asked for and was given proof of allegations but he is dead too, and Pickle supplies no proof for his claims.

AND The truth in regards to every previous allegation against Tommy Shelton there is not one thing filed or reported with any legal or civil agency, with the exception of one complaint of a verbal and sexual proposal made in 1984, and that was investigated by the proper agencies and found to be without merit.

Anyway, in my view, I have no reason to assume of presume that Tommy Shelton is guilty of anything in the past in regards to child molestation, so I personally take and consider the accusations in the current case apart from and independent of all else. I have attempted to weigh the validity of the accusations made against Tommy by their own merits, or lack thereof, and because of that I see some problems, some major ones... in regards to how they came about, the character and history of the two accusing him, and their very testimony, and even though that it is not proof, and I will not say Tommy is 100% innocent because I can not personally testify about that? Based on what I do know there is a lot which causes doubt in my mind and causes me to caution and warn all pronouncing Tommy guilty to be very careful less they are guilty of false witness and misjudging and cause themselves to be judged even as they judge and are found wanting and guilty.... I wish to discuss the current case free of partiality and bias based on it's own merits or lack there of, do you?
~ Cindy
mrst53
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:09 pm America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by mrst53 »

Cindy,
I don't believe nor disbelieve Bob or Joy and have nothing against 3abn. I do not know Danny or Linda. I am just a bystander. When I heard about the allegations against Tommy, I was astonished to even find all the other information about 3abn. If Tommy is guilty then I believe he needs to be punished, BUT, he also needs help and forgiveness. IF there were past problems, SOMETHING should have been done in the past.
Do I forgive my abuser, yes. For years, I have not even thought about it. Only when this came up, did I even begin to think about it again and I have had to forgive her again and I guess as long as this is going on, I won't be able to forget it again. I will be glad when it is over, as I am sure every one will be.

I asked on the other site, How is Tommy's Health? Is he doing ok?No matter what he does need our prayers.

yes,I go by mrst53
mrst53
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:09 pm America/Denver

Tommy's Health

Post by mrst53 »

I sat in Church this morning and we sang"Victory in Jesus". I had a real forgiveness for Tommy. We are all covered by the Blood of Jesus, if Tommy has asked for, forgiveness(if he is guilty).

I have asked before and no one was sure on the other site, but I am concerned about Tommy's health. I am not spying for anyone,I just want to know how to pray. I believe that when we pray, we should be specific.
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Cynthia
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Re: Tommy's Health

Post by Cynthia »

mrst53 wrote:I sat in Church this morning and we sang"Victory in Jesus". I had a real forgiveness for Tommy. We are all covered by the Blood of Jesus, if Tommy has asked for, forgiveness(if he is guilty).

I have asked before and no one was sure on the other site, but I am concerned about Tommy's health. I am not spying for anyone,I just want to know how to pray. I believe that when we pray, we should be specific.
Hi, I merged your new topic with this one to make all easier to follow. I am sorry for the delay in answering here. I have been very majorly preoccupied and know others are too right now with work and home. I think Generally we try and login or read all here and there on a regular basis, but most of us simply don't have the time or inclination to hang out daily or hourly, so we might be a bit in getting back to things, but will eventually. ;)

Honestly, I hate this problem! I hate this topic! I want nothing more than to ignore it because it hurts me and others, and it's unpleasant and it causes so much anger and judging and misjudging. But no one else is answering here and I think you deserve an answer... So, I am going to be as blunt and straightforward as I know to be although I know others hate that, or avoid it. Why? I have to do, and say, as my conscience dictates, and really? I am not sure if even Tommy or his family, or anyone else at 3ABN agrees with me here. I do know I love them all but that can't be my main concern, and I do know that they at least understand and accept and love me for that, even as I know my brethren have to act and speak as their conscience dictates even tho maybe disagreeing with me, and actually speaking in disagreement because they love me... We all have to be accountable to God and our conscience before we can be accountable to one another imo. I think we can recognize one another along the way, but need to leave it to God to show us the way and lead us on it, and trust he will eventually lead all who love him and want to follow him to the same destination

Of course I do read at the other forum, ( even tho I have been permanently banned by Snoopy due to her posting all her threats against me and following it up with phone calls to my family and me, saying the same exactthings, and me making that known ;)) so I saw where you were concerned we might think you a spy and not answer your questions due to that. Please put that out of your head. That isn't a concern here, ok? Reason being the posts with questions and answers are public so any are free to read and see them. No spies required. lol

Ok, before moving on. I would like to say I am in a bit of disagreement about your forgiving Tommy, if he has repented, and if he is guilty, although I do appreciate you adding those "ifs", as that is more refreshing than you probably realize. ;) The thing is to my way of thinking we don't need to forgive someone unless we consider them guilty in regards to what we are forgiving them for. I understand you might feel that way, but for myself I don't forgive Tommy as I have nothing to forgive him for. My understanding is that Tommy wrestled with homosexual issues and , yes he sinned, as he gave into his temptations,and it caused problems for him and for others, but he has long since confessed, apologized, tried to make amends, gone to counseling voluntarily to get help he needed and moved on. I figure the forgiveness was already given by those he offended which includes his wife, and it was hard on her.. But most importantly he was forgiven by God, so his past is gone, just like mine. PRAISE GOD, right? If his isn't forgiven,then I am in serious trouble, and so are you, and so are we all, for if Jesus blood hasn't cleansed him and covered him, well then it hasn't done that for us either. I do know and acknowledge there are accusations and allegations floating around regarding pedophilia, but the thing is, there is no proof of anything, and only this recent case has been documented, and we are called to prove all things, and to not misjudge and to love and have mercy to others, as that is what we are given. I admit I have questions about the case. MANY... I also know Tommy to be a man who despite what you hear has a conscience and mans up to his wrongs, as he did to his own shame and embarrassment when it came to his relationship with Duane Clem etc. He is in very sad health and his time is short, but despite that and knowing his eternal life and future depends on being right with God, he offers no apologies to these two men, and no confessions to them, to his family or to his friends, and he has in fact proclaimed his innocence to them privately. That to me, far outweighs a public guilty plea, and although I understand the reasons and the fear which causes that, I also acknowledge that when and if he does plead guilty, in the eyes of the world, and the earthly courts and law, HE WILL BE GUILTY, and I will no longer defend him when it comes to these two men as I feel he forfeits that right in my eyes and in my thinking. I love him, I support and I pray for him, as well as for Alex Walker and Dennis Turley, and although I respect his right to do what he thinks best for he and his family, and will fight tooth and nail to preserve his right to do so, I myself think it the wrong decision and choice. I tend to be verbose so excuse me, but I just feel the need to explain why I do not feel the need to forgive him as you do. None of his sins were against me or mine, and I am not God, and I think he knows what needs to be forgiven or not better than I.

Now in regards to his health... It's poor. VERY POOR. It has been for a long time. I truly and honestly believe (and I know I am far from alone) that jail-time for him would be the equivalent of a death sentence, and that if the current case went to trial there is a very good chance he might never live to see the end of it. Obviously if my days were numbered I would not want to spend them in litigation or involved with civil matters or worried about those who hated or accused me unfairly. I would leave them to God. I would be much more concerned with being with those I was close to and bonded with and who loved me too. I would be much more concerned I believe with making sure I was right with God and with my fellow man, and doing all I could to make my last days meaningful and worthwhile for others and myself. I think my list of priorities would become much more streamlined and shorter than it is now, as only what truly mattered would have precedence, and that is why I understand the plea bargain, even tho I don't believe I myself would accept one if I were in his place, but the thing is I am not in his place, or in his family's place and until and if I ever am, I can not say with certainty what I would do...

To be more specific about Tommy's health. The Shelton family has a genetic weakness which is inherited, leading to blocked veins and arteries and heart problems, etc. Tommy's father, who by all reports was a good man, a good father and much loved and was struck down very young due to that. He died as they were just learning or not yet able to stand alone. Yet they all learned to do so as they also had a good Christian mother and were grounded in a home where the love of God and faith was a staple ingredient. They also learned that none of them are immune to that same genetic weakness and are subject to it by inheritance, not due to their sins, but due to the sin and sickness in this sad world. Personally I understand how frustrating our life and lot can be, but applaud them all for choosing to follow God, and to follow his health and life plan and praise him for his mercies and miracles rather than railing against him and blaming him.

Tommy, for example, has had multiple life threatening crisis, multiple bypasses and multiple surgeries and procedures and stints and he is only alive today by the grace of God, and while his enemies have constantly proclaimed them all his fault and said "He deserves it". he alone gives God the glory. I like that. Anyone reading or knowing of his case history can't help but acknowledge that in my opinion, unless they don't want to acknowledge it... For multiple miracles are also in evidence. :) The thing is he is weak. he has lived beyond his projected life span, way beyond. His nephew revealed he can't even carry groceries into the house without a problem. He very recently had a blood clot requiring hospitalization which threatened his very life and the drugs to treat it did as well as they were detrimental to the conditions he already has, but not as detrimental as the untreated blood clot would be.. He is on medication for symptoms but when he was arrested they took them away from him, and when he needed them they refused to give them to him, or allow him to see the nurse etc. He almost died before he got help, and his family and he are scared for him. I totally understand that. It breaks my heart. It is not right, it is not fair, but i understand reality. An accused child molester is hated almost more than a convicted murderer as even many of those despise them, and the truth is most don't need proof, they just need an accuser to pronounce them guilty, never mind that false accusations and the reasons for such have existed since sin entered this world. You know what though? He continues to witness for God. and someday the stories I can't tell now will be revealed by the Almighty, and by those who were saved due to his witness and example. ( sadly I don't see that those accusing him will ever experience that...)

Anyway the bottom line here for me is that all prayers are coveted on Tommy's behalf as God hears all, but any which are unrighteous and unjust as in judgmental and false will pass right over his head, except to condemn the person judging without mercy and without facts and evidence, as that will be recorded against them and not the one they misjudge...

The basic problem here is that Bob Pickle and others, lacking evidence and proof against DS and 3ABN, have chosen to take allegations against Tommy as evidence of their fault and guilt, but it isn't and can't be as no proof of that exists. Even if and notice I do say "IF" proof of Tommy's guilt exists. Recently on adventtalk, Pickle himself questioned why a concerned and family member would ask, "What happened?" or pursue it by saying " I just want to know what happened". Pickle the major accuser, had never asked Tommy's accusers that, and stated that himself while asking if that kind of question was normal. Give me a break! That is not only normal, but necessary! Don't be saying you have statements which condemn someone if you haven't done so, or verified anything!


Many of us hesitate to give any updates about Tommy's health as it always engenders attacks and criticisms and we don't want to enable that. It's not right, and it's hurtful to all who love and know him and just adds fuel to the fire... his accusers ALWAYS post " "WE need proof that this occurred!" "Tommy is suffering, well good", but also claim" anytime anything occurs that Tommy or others claim there is a health problem just to excuse his guilt to make all feel sorry for him".. What follows from them is always "But even if true WE DON"T FEEL SORRY FOR HIM, He DESERVED AND CAUSED IT HIMSELF or It's God's Judgment so we are right" OR "no matter what you say, allegations exist, and that proves he is guilty and his health doesn't excuse or change that! or if he wasn't guilty there wouldn't be so many accusations!" OR" if he wasn't guilty of sin he would have no physical illness!" I am quoting here, something that made me, personally feel physically sick when I read it today :
"DS mind maybe too far on other side to even think that he sins. Btw, I heard that he has had a couple of heart operations and bad health himself like TS. I did not know that until a few days ago. and now TS wife too. Hearts and minds must not be working together!"

The truth is all of the Shelton children, DS, TS and siblings have overcame a lot, some are living on borrowed time due to God's grace, and Tommy's poor wife has gone through a lot also and overcome so much and now she needs a pacemaker and her enemies say it is because she is damned and guilty? THAT IS NOT EVEN RIGHT. Those who say so, as this person has done repeatedly cannot possibly know her, or my same Lord imo...

I hate and despise that kind of thinking! So judgmental and beyond what we are ever called as Christians to do, but that is soooo typical! Many are ill and suffering in this world and of course it is not due to their own sin, just look at the children and the innocent! It is heartbreaking, and it is not right! I think it was made abundantly clear that false accusers would claim that illness and infirmity was the individuals fault, but I think God's son and our Creator made the truth also abundantly clear in John 9:

Jhn 9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
Jhn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jhn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Jhn 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Jhn 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Jhn 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
Jhn 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
Jhn 9:9 Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he].
Jhn 9:10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
Jhn 9:11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
Jhn 9:12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
Jhn 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
Jhn 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Jhn 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
Jhn 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Jhn 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
Jhn 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
Jhn 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
Jhn 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
Jhn 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
Jhn 9:22 These [words] spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
Jhn 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
Jhn 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
Jhn 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner [or no], I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
Jhn 9:26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
Jhn 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear [it] again? will ye also be his disciples?
Jhn 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
Jhn 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is.
Jhn 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes.
Jhn 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Jhn 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
Jhn 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
Jhn 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
Jhn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Jhn 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Jhn 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
Jhn 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Jhn 9:40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


I believe that! although I also certainly believe all make their own choices, and many make their bed and have to lay in it, although many lay in a bed not of their making until Jesus says " rise, pick it up, and walk". Certainly accusations and blame cause stress and add to it whether guilty or innocent, and certainly when praying for the healing of anyone we should stress the need of repentance and doing things as God calls, to facilitate that. BUT, and this is a big BUT imho, after pointing that out, I believe we need to avoid judgments regarding salvation and Christianity etc, and leave those things between God and each individual, and Never think that because we hold an opinion of judgment that God does also. He leads. He knows who are his. His ways are not ours, his thoughts are not ours, and He alone is Merciful and Righteous and Judges accordingly. That is his job and never ours imo.

So, I, knowing the Shelton family, their characters and their lives, do not say: " well you know they earned there problems and its God's judgment on them" or add "it is because they don't agree with Bob Pickle, Gailon Joy or any of the axe grinders who hate 3ABN...". I can't! it's so hateful to me. Our God is love, how can we be that without following his example? The thing is, I just love all the Shelton siblings. I can't recognize any truth in the accusations against them when I compare them with what I know of them and the circumstances etc, and I know God loves and knows them too. So far from saying their inherited illness is a judgment of God, I look at their prognosis according to the world and their infirmities and weaknesses which are inherited, and the fact that Tommy and all of his siblings still live and still proclaim their faith in God and his love to all, and don't give up despite all, and the fact that they all continue to outlive and live beyond their prognosis, and I say Hallelujah! They have lived past all that was prophesied and diagnosed by the world and that is not due to a curse but is obviously due to God's grace and is a blessing and a testimony. I subject to you that perhaps, Tommy also has a testimony and work to do. He is very ill, and near death, but he lives.

So in regard to Tommy's health. It is not good, and he is living on borrowed time, and all due to God's grace imho. Please keep praying for him, and for all, ok? God knows best, and Jesus imo said it best "Nevertheless not according to my will but thine"

I am praying for Tommy and I am thanking you for that also, but I am asking for God's will , and just ask that you do the same, for him, and for me, and for yourself as well as for all others.

Admittedly that is just my thinking, but you have to know God has a plan, and all is according to his will and glory. That is as it should be. ;) Let's just pray for that knowing that he will prevail and make all known. :) I can't wait...



Blessings...
~ Cindy
proffaberf451
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:03 am America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by proffaberf451 »

mrst53,

I too am going to be rather straight forward in my addition to what Cindy posted. She has done a fantastic job above addressing your question and laying out what many of us are feeling at this point. I am not sure of your connection to the situation. I don't know if you are related to either Alex or Dennis or if you were just recruited by GAJ/RJP. You have made your position known on RJP's AT site and I have followed along over there.

I would diverge a little from Cindy in that I don't think you have a reason or a right to forgive Tommy. Forgiveness is an act that happens two ways:

1. Between the sinner and God

2. Between the individual and the one they have wronged.

I don't feel you have a right to forgive Tommy if he has never wronged you. To entertain such an idea is to presumptuously assume that your forgiveness has any bearing on Tommy's salvation and God's grace for him. Now, if Tommy has wronged you personally, then I am out of line. However, to my knowledge that isn't the case. There is a heretical idea that permeates the AT forum, that being that some how humans can demand repentance, verify it, and bestow forgiveness and God's grace on someone they feel has sinned. That idea is fundamental to Catholicism - the idea that repentance can be determined, restitution be prescribed, and God's grace bestowed via an earthly, human mediator. That is the basis of GAJ and RJP's involvement in all of this. They have usurped the work of God, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and set themselves up as the agents of justification, sanctification, and salvation here on earth. They have violated all Biblical guidance in regards to working with a Christian brother in restoring them to the family of God.

For years, RJP has been working this angle as a means to satisfy his vindictive spirit against Danny Shelton and 3ABN. He has been driven by jealousy and spite. He was directed out of service within the church, he has been denied membership into ASI, he has not been able to have his book published by an Adventist publishing house, he has been denied the opportunity at pastorship in numerous conferences in the North American Division and he was removed as an elder in his last church (a very conservative Adventist church).

Now he holds himself up as one who can evaluate and determine who has sinned and how grievous their sins are. Then he suggests that he can determine whether or not repentance has occurred (he has a sick, unBiblical theology that unless repentance is always public it isn't sincere). And finally, he insinuates that he can determine the salvation standing of any Christian he decides needs to be evaluated.

Forgiveness is a personal act. If I wrong you, I must come to you, confess my wrong, and ask your forgiveness (this is a means to heal relationships, not to secure salvation) and I must seek the Lord on my knees and confess my sin to Him, accept the cleansing blood of Jesus, and know that this act alone leaves me "just as if I had never sinned." That is justification. The daily process of this act along with a deepening of my relationship with the Savior is the sanctified life.

No man is assigned to determine my standing with God. You can't forgive Tommy, you don't have a right to assume you can. You can always love him into the arms of the Savior if you feel he has strayed - but that is all you can do. Let the love that God fills your heart with flow to Tommy in way that you can embrace him as a fellow traveler of the straight and narrow way.

- prof
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Donna
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:19 pm America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by Donna »

I wanted to answer mrst53 and was praying about how to word it that would be truth and pleasing to the Lord. I had the thoughts but the words would not come and I now know why. The Lord had Cindy and Prof in mind and gave them the words to express it. I am thankful to the Lord and give Him all the honor and glory. It is another example of waiting with patience and continued prayer and letting the Lord work out things in His own time.

We all know the Lord is in charge and will only allow that which is best for all concerned. He is very long in patience. He will not force, coerce, intimidate, threaten, or want unloving things to happen to His children.
We would be like Jesus.

Donna

I wanted to use the following as my signature but haven't figured out how yet. :-)

"Most startling messages will be borne by men of God's appointment, messages of a character to warn the people, to arouse them. And while some will be provoked by the warning, and led to resist the light and evidence, we are to see from this that we are giving the testing message for this time." Evangelism, p. 168.
"Most startling messages will be borne by men of God's appointment, messages of a character to warn the people, to arouse them. And while some will be provoked by the warning, and led to resist the light and evidence, we are to see from this that we are giving the testing message for this time." Evangelism, p. 168.
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Cynthia
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:00 am America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by Cynthia »

Donna wrote:I wanted to answer mrst53 and was praying about how to word it that would be truth and pleasing to the Lord. I had the thoughts but the words would not come and I now know why. The Lord had Cindy and Prof in mind and gave them the words to express it. I am thankful to the Lord and give Him all the honor and glory. It is another example of waiting with patience and continued prayer and letting the Lord work out things in His own time.

We all know the Lord is in charge and will only allow that which is best for all concerned. He is very long in patience. He will not force, coerce, intimidate, threaten, or want unloving things to happen to His children.
We would be like Jesus.

Donna

I wanted to use the following as my signature but haven't figured out how yet. :-)

"Most startling messages will be borne by men of God's appointment, messages of a character to warn the people, to arouse them. And while some will be provoked by the warning, and led to resist the light and evidence, we are to see from this that we are giving the testing message for this time." Evangelism, p. 168.
Yes, God is good and it amazes me how he works.

And.. I fixed that signature. ;) I'm sorry it took me so long, I forgot all about it till now. :oops:
~ Cindy
User avatar
Donna
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:19 pm America/Denver

Re: Tommy Shelton

Post by Donna »

First of all, imho, horsethief has set his or herself up not only as accuser but also as judge and decided what the sentence should be. From his or her own mouth we see what is in the heart.

Secondly, praying that God give wisdom to the judge is great, but then to go on and
tell God what the judge should do is something else. In my op, it is not asking for God's will but for horsethief's will to be done.

Thirdly, he or she has asked all others to pray the same. How sad is that.

Then he or she says:

"Pray also that the people who have tried to subvert justice
can be exposed for their cruelty and callousness."

In my opinion, I really do not think most of those at AT would really like to reap that.

Paul spoke words of wisdom that should be considered because, in my opinion, they seem to relate why some say and do the things they do.

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Rom. 10:3

edited to add where text was found.
"Most startling messages will be borne by men of God's appointment, messages of a character to warn the people, to arouse them. And while some will be provoked by the warning, and led to resist the light and evidence, we are to see from this that we are giving the testing message for this time." Evangelism, p. 168.
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